Pre-Trib Rapture & Ranks of the resurrection - Part Two

[larry]

LET'S START

In my introduction in part one I somewhat gave away the direction I plan on teaching of the different ranks in the resurrection, and so I will just go ahead with each point and try to respond to any questions instead of asking questions. On one previous thread I was informed that the Wikipedia Encyclopedia was not a trusted resource and I agree if it really gets down to splitting pennies, but in this case it is close enough to explain what I am try to reveal to you. Keeping this fact in mind will prove valuable in a future fact concerning the birth of Jesus. Why is the birth of Jesus important to these things in Revelation? You'll see.

Now to explain who Jesus' angel is, is to know what God has in store for some of us. We read of Jesus' angel in Revelation 1:1, 19:10, and 22:8. Revelation 1:1. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he (Jesus) sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." Revelation 19:10. "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 22:8-9. "And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

At least for now I just want to bring one more example of God using men He calls angels in the book of Revelation. In Revelation Chapter 14 we see 6 different angels working with God, and I'll just use one verse to show the type work one is shown to do. Revelation 14:6. "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people." In future studies we may go into this one just a little. What I am telling you about angels mentioned in Revelation for the most part, is that they are redeemed mankind. I will not be going into a study of created angels other that to show a limited amount of judgment to some of them, and then only to show their relationship and hatred of God's saints if we even go that far in this study.

One last thing we want to know is that the word "angel" in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word "aggelos," which has the meaning of "a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God." Even Jesus Himself is referred to as an Angel in Revelation 20:1-2: "And I saw an angel (Jesus) come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand." Only One has the authority to bind Satan and bind him for a thousand years in Verse 2, and that is Jesus Himself. Enough on angels for now, and I hope you can see that it is not mostly created angels that are being dealt with in Revelation, God is dealing with mankind.

Now we come to different views John is given as he is given the Revelation of Jesus Christ. There are actually 5 different viewpoints or different localities that John is given or is speaking from, though I may not cover them all because my purpose in this thread is to show that there is different raptures of the saints that take place in scripture.

Number one was Christ Himself, 1 Corinthians 15:20. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." Next we see in Matthew 27:5-53: "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Please note here that it does not say that all that slept arose, but MANY. So if none arise prior to the tribulation, where do these come to? The rapture at the last trump? One dear brother suggested that these like Lazarus may have just came back to life and not gone to heaven.

Now we need to notice the different viewpoints of the events John is seeing. I think I will only bring forward a couple of them to show different ranks of the resurrection. Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet. What is the Lord's day? It is not Sunday and is just the opposite of man's day in 1 Corinthians 4:3 where man does the judging. At the start of the Lord's day, it begins with Jesus being crowned as King of kings and Lord of Lords. But to cut to the chase, John is looking backward from that day and sees Jesus walking among the churches examining them as to their spirituality during this present age we live in.

Now we'll jump to that judgment described in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 This description of these seven different churches and their judgment are given of those churches present in the first days of the Church, but the conditions there apply to the Church in general because God is showing John these same things from the future, and I'll just show highlights of different judgments, and different rewards. There is a problem with Ephesus in Revelation 2:1-11. Many things were judged good, but there was a problem as they had left their first love in Revelation 2:4.They had left off putting Christ first in their lives and told to repent. Then we come to the church at Smyrna that suffer tribulation and if they remain faithful until they die they will be given a crown of life. Keep this crown in mind. And we see the remaining churches judged except the Philadelphia church, and in Revelation 3:10 we see them commended. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Because they patiently keep God's word He will keep them from the tribulation to come upon all the earth. If you can see this, God rewards or judges us according to our conduct according to His word. Next we'll see where Jesus gets His throne.

Now again the Lord's day starts when He takes His place upon His own throne in heaven. Then where is He now? He is our days man, or mediator between us and the Father. Hebrews 12:2. "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." And then He is walking among the churches (candlesticks) judging them. 1 Peter 4:17. "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" So this is what Jesus is doing now, but though we read in Matthew 28:18 where Jesus says "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth," He has not taken that authority yet because we still see the nations ruling here now, and at the start of the tribulation they will be ruling in usurpation until they are put down.

Now we come to our second vision viewpoint. At this point John is invited up to the throne room, and it is time for Jesus to take His place as King of kings and Lord of lords. Revelation 4:2. "Immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. The One to sit on this throne set, or put down is Jesus Himself. And now we come to those who are first to be caught up in the first rapture. Do you remember where I said to keep this crown in mind? Notice the following. Revelation 4:2. "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." These are those who were faithful unto death.

Now this is not the only group to be there with Jesus at the first rapture. You must know that there is going to be two groups in this rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" The church of Smyrna were those that were faithful unto death, and the church at Philadelphia remained alive and were promised to miss the tribulation for patiently keeping the word of God, and they are the only other church mentioned with a crown in Revelation 3:11. And then they were caught up together with those dead of Smyrna to meet the Lord in the air.

We see them in Revelation 4:6 as the four beasts in the very midst of the throne with Jesus. Possibly a better description of these four beasts was given by the prophet Ezekiel when he described them as four living creatures in his view of the future. These four living creatures and the twenty-four elders are what we call the very bride that are ruling and reigning with Christ. They are present at the very first with Him as Jesus takes His throne and carry out the things we will see in much of the remainder of Revelation. One last bit of information though is very important to realizing who these two groups are is in Revelation 5:8-10. Especially note that they are redeemed, are priests and kings, and from every nation. 8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Since I got this far, I might as well present a very abbreviated view of at least two more raptures which are not pre-tribulation. Since we are in the seven years of tribulation past the first rapture we saw in Revelation Chapter 4, any that we see arrive in heaven will be subsequent to the first rapture. Next we come to Revelation 7:9. Remember that John is now in a heavenly view, and says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. Then in Revelation 7:14 we're told they come out of great tribulation. This portion of the church were not kept from tribulation as the Philadelphia were, and one other thing is that their reward is white robes and palms in their hands versus the crowns those of the bride had.

The last rapture of the church during the tribulation is seen in Revelation 12:5. "And she (a great wonder in heaven) brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Who is this man child? It is not Jesus; He is on His throne already. We're given a view of them in Revelation 14:1. "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

That's enough to possibly see some of my view without exhausting you in duration, and I hope this was of some help of understanding a little more of scripture. May God continue to bless us in the only name given among men by which we may be saved and that is the name of His Son Jesus - larry

[Mag]

Hi, I must admit I don’t understand what you write. Could you perhaps add some short conclusion? Thanks.

According to the Bible for example Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven (in body) but we don’t usually speak about it as “rapture”.

I think there are 2 events described:

1) "Rapture" - Jesus coming in clouds (not coming to the Earth). Bodies of saved people will be changed and dead (belivers) will arise and the saints will be taken to Him.

(There shouldn't be Church left after the Rapture but there will be people who will repent later and die for their faith - the great multitude coming from the Tribulation.)

2) “Day of the Lord” according to Zech. 14 is the day when Christ comes personally with the saints to Jerusalem. His feet touch the Earth and Millennium follows.
3) Unbelivers rise from dead only after Millennium.

There should be a gap between these comings fulfilled by other events.

Margaret

[larry]

Here Jesus comes and everyone sees Him. Matthew 24:30. "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Here Jesus comes as a thief. Another coming of Christ is described in Matthew 24:44. "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

So we must realize they point to different times that He is coming, otherwise who do we believe? Is He coming as a thief, or is He coming when every eye shall see Him?

Now the idea is that once we look at Revelation, there are different companies of saints starting in Chapter 4 arriving at separate times. i.e. - First the 24 Elders and the 4 beast, second comes the great multitude, and third comes 144,000. These all are part of the Church but arrive in heaven at different times depending upon their spiritual walk with Christ at this time.

Basically dear sister, I did not go into all the book of Revelation, but when we read of the seven different churches being judged in Revelation Chapters 2 & 3, they are not only churches shown as the candlesticks present at that time, but represent conditions prevalent in the churches today. They are judged by their walk with Christ and will be rewarded accordingly.

Now the Church (all three parts) will all be in heaven before the middle of the week when the antichrist is revealed and takes away the sacrifice, so those that will be tested in death comes during the second 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.

The Day of the Lord is the 1000 year reign of Christ, and many different thing happen because of the nations ruling in usurpation at that time. There will be the battle of Armageddon when all nations come against Jerusalem, and deliverance from them. He hides the woman of Revelation Chapter 12 that gives birth to the 144,000 and all these are believers.

You are right concerning that only the dead will rise at the end of the millennium at the last trump as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:52. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.".

I still may not have helped but am willing to continue in Jesus' name - larry

[Mag]

Originally Posted by larry

Here Jesus comes and everyone sees Him. Matthew 24:30. "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Here Jesus comes as a thief. Another coming of Christ is described in Matthew 24:44. "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

So we must realize they point to different times that He is coming, otherwise who do we believe? Is He coming as a thief, or is He coming when every eye shall see Him?

Hi,

I think that there is not such a thing as secret coming in a way that people would not see Him. If a thief comes to your home, you will also see him.

It's written that nobody knows about the day when Christ comes (for the first time in clouds) and it could refer to the fact that there will not be any evidence right before it (although there are certain signs and events).

While before the physical coming to Jerusalem, there will be the battle (if you look on my thread BATTLES, it seems it is actually not Armageddon).

Rapture: Matthew 24

23If anyone says to you then, Behold, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, There He is!--do not believe it.
24For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God's chosen ones).
25See, I have warned you beforehand.
26So if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness (desert)--do not go out there; if they tell you, Behold, He is in the secret places or inner rooms--do not believe it.
27For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines and [h]is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
...
30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and [i]beat their ******* and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].(E)
31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the [j]universe to the other.(F)

This is in my opinion the coming in the clouds, not yet to Jerusalem and it's like lightning. This is certainly not the day of the Lord for here He will gather the saints, they will still be here....

It continues:

36But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

The day of the Lord: Rev. 19, Joel 3, Zech. 14 is much later and He comes with the saints He has gathered before.

I'm sorry, I am not sure whether we are talking about the same and using only different words or whether you actually believe in another three comings
a) thief b) as lightning in the clouds c) the day of the Lord.

I belive only in two a) Rapture, when He comes in clouds, like lightning but actually also as a thief in the way it's unexpected b) Day of the Lord.

(Both the events have some meaning and work to be done, take the saints, win the battle and make Millennium but what would He do on the third occasion?)

Perhaps you only assign some of the verses to a different event as I do. I don't want to argue, I haven't looked properly on everything. On the other hand I think that the basic teachings of the Bible aren't a riddle depending on who is an angel.

The thing about this chat is that people don't actually know who they are talking to. I must admit I have never heard so many different opinions about things that seemed clear to me. It forces me to think and look in the Bible on one hand and on the other hand I slowly start to consider some of the discussions as useless because almost everybody thinks he's right and he's helping others who think they are actually right and the other person is confused and they are helping him. And nobody helps anybody after all because hardly anybody is willing to change and acknowledge ideas of somebody called like "saved wildflower" who can be a man or a woman, saved 1 month or 20 years. I keep on writing just because some of the ideas really surprise me (and because I think I have some knowledge of at least the basic teachings of the Bible).

Once I had a shortly converted colleague at work and we argued about a few topics. After I gave him several pages and explanation of the Biblical evidence, he always concluded the discussions with the words "yeah, but the pastor said God stopped doing this in the first century" and all my words were in vain.

This always makes me sad. On one hand I think we can have some benefit from some of the discussion, on the other hand it's actually good sense not to reverse our whole world just because an unknown wildflower said something. And if we don't why should we actually think that the others would? We are wildflowers to them too.

So I want to conclude this discussion from my side by explaining my attitudes. I don't know much about Eschatology but yet I think you make things more difficult than they are, Larry. Thank you for your effort to help but I still miss your point. Moreover you think you are helping me and I think I'm helping you and I'm afraid it leads nowhere.

Margaret

[larry]

Dear Sister Margaret, I think the easiest way to see this is to see the events occurring as John sees them happening.

In Revelation 4:1 we read; "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." This is a new vision viewpoint to John. He just finished describing Jesus as the Judge walking amidst the churches, and tells of their judgment, but now he is going to see things to come.

In their order of appearing we must remember that all raptures or translations will occur with the dead of any group rising first, and then those that are alive of that same group being caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. The first group John sees is the 24 elders (those dead in Christ), and the 4 beasts (those alive at His coming). These are present with Christ even before the tribulation begins. These have crowns which no other group to come after these have, and they are in the midst of the throne and round about the throne.

Next in order of arrival John sees the great multitude in Revelation Chapter 7. These are even said to have come out of great tribulation and they only have white robes and palms in their hand.

Revelation 7:13. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These are saved, they are before the throne, not in the midst of it, and they are servants.

Last before the midst of the seven years of tribulation John sees the 144,000 (the man child) being caught up unto God in Revelation 12:5.

These three companies make up the total rapture of the Church, but each in their own order.

And you are right; there is no reason to be separated because of our different views of Revelation. The thing I see in all of this is the necessity of being ready for the better place with Christ. Any place in heaven is going to be wonderful, but to rule and reign with Christ as a joint heir versus being a servant there is worth our best effort.

Thank you for your reply in Jesus' name - larry