Mark 2:18-22

[snapstur]

@Shield> Let's open in prayer

@Shield> Our Father we thank you for this day you have given us.

@Shield> We ask that you would minister to each person in this place.

@Shield> Thanks Lord for all you are doing for us.

@Shield> May the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts be acceptable in your sight, oh Lord.

@Shield> amen

Tigger> amen

carol> amen

@Shield> Good evening everyone

@Shield> welcome to tonight's Bible study and meeting

@Shield> Due to personal obligations offline I am going to try to be a bit briefer than normal just this evening.

@Shield> So I hope you will understand and enjoy our time together anyway:)

LarryBoy> :)

@Shield> I do have a couple of comments starting right off relating to chatting on CCNet.

@Shield> The first one is something which you can use yourself or you can teach others to use.

@Shield> We have a feature on this IRCd called /ignore

@Shield> So if another user is bothering you and an op is not around to help you, you can simply type /ignore username

@Shield> for example, /ignore Shield

@Shield> When you do that, it makes the other user's text no longer appear on your screen

@Shield> it works for text chat in the channels, in private chats and with /notice messages.

@Shield> :)

@Shield> Hence the short meeting:)

Angel4God> (:o)

jo> what is this chapel about?

sarahw> I see

@Shield> I share this with you because one of the most common points of feedback I receive via the feedback forms, is how one person cannot seem to get along with another person.

@Shield> jo, if you pc Angel4God or Tigger then they will be able to bring you up to speed:)

@Shield> So anyway, try it out next time someone bothers you.

@Shield> Or, if you simply find yourself getting really upset, try logging out for awhile.

@Shield> Go do something else:)

@Shield> to log out, you simply type /quit

@Shield> this will disconnect you from irc.christian-chat.net

@Shield> and will enable you to focus on more important priorities offline that will help you regain some perspective in life.

@Shield> After all, life is too short to be overly troubled by a hobby like the internet, wouldn't you agree?

@Shield> :)

@Shield> Now then

@Shield> let's move on

jo> what do you guy do in chapel??

@Shield> by the way, feel free to pass that along.

@Shield> jo, we are having a server meeting and getting ready to start a brief Bible study

@Shield> :)

@Shield> I am glad to see you here tonight.

@Shield> I trust you have had a lovely week so far.

@Shield> Tonight we have available Angel4God and Tigger if any of you would like to chat privately with someone or ask for prayer.

@Shield> or if you have a question about what we are doing

@Shield> that way I can go ahead and move us right along with our study.

@Shield> With that said, let's take a look at the Gospel of Mark once again.

@Shield> If you recall, we have been working through Mark chapter two

@Shield> Past logs of the study can be found at www.forums.christianworld.com

@Shield> Last week we saw Jesus having a meal at Levi's home

@Shield> Levi was a tax collector

@Shield> and there were all kinds of tax collectors, sinners and other disreputable people there...

@Shield> people whom Jesus surely should not be hanging out with.....

@Shield> at least, not from the perspective of the Pharisees.

@Shield> But Jesus disagreed.

@Shield> He said, Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard this, he said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call not the righteous but sinners."

@Shield> Shh. I think Angel4God fell asleep:)

@Shield> Let me post it again.

@Shield> He said, Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard this, he said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call not the righteous but sinners."

@Shield> the Pharisees had begun plotting against Jesus

@Shield> and now we pick up the narrative again

@Shield> in Mark 2:18

@Shield> Mark 2:18 Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and people came and said to him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?"

@Shield> now remember....

@Shield> in the text, there is no discernible break between verse 17

@Shield> and verse 18

@Shield> the break which you might see in your hardcopy Bible does not exist in the original text

@Shield> In the original, there are no verse and chapter and section divisions

@Shield> so verse 18 is a continuation of the same context

@Shield> although it is often treated as a totally separate self-contained passage, often called a pericope by biblical scholars.

@Shield> let's look again, now that we have set the stage and let's eavesdrop on the conversation...

@Shield> Mark 2:18 Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and people came and said to him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?"

@Shield> So let's make some observations.

@Shield> raise your hand o/ if you would like a shot at the answer, one person per question please unless you have a different view than someone else

@Shield> who came to Jesus?

Tigger> o/

@Shield> yes Tigger?

Tigger> his disciples

@Shield> what is your biblical basis?

Tigger> LOl..oops, it was the people, not his disciples

@Shield> correct

@Shield> so we really do not know with precision, based on this text, who those people were

sarahw> ;/

@Shield> next question, who were they saying was fasting?

sarahw> ;/

@Shield> sarahw, I am not sure what you are indicating. Do you have a question?

sarahw> john disciples

sarahw> and the first question : is this

@Shield> ah. I see. You were raising your hand. Yes, John's disciples is part of the answer

@Shield> who else was fasting?

@Shield> anyone?

sarahw> those who were not fasting may not have not either known to or didn't believe in it

@Shield> well that is speculation

@Shield> so let's go ahead and stay on course if we could please

@Shield> the other group was the Pharisees

@Shield> so John's disciples and the Pharisees

@Shield> Do you detect anything odd about that?

@Shield> that those two groups should be mentioned in the same breath?

@Shield> maybe it's just me:)

Tigger> o/

Blessed808> God is Good..

@Shield> But I get the feeling, when reading that passage, that whoever the "people" were who came to Jesus complaining about his disciples not fasting, they were trying hard to back him into a corner.

@Shield> yes Tigger?

@Shield> Blessed808, we are in a Bible study in progress, please feel free to join us quietly. thanks!

Tigger> I was just going to ask what your thoughts are on that.

@Shield> I think the "people" were sly dogs.

Blessed808> ok..amen

@Shield> remember...

@Shield> the foreshadowing in chapter one of Mark

jo> yeah,amen

@Shield> the Pharisees were determined to discredit Jesus

Blessed808> amen..

@Shield> and here we see a subtle bit of evidence of that kind of thing

sarahw> yes

@Shield> they had just finished questioning him about spending time with tax collectors and sinners in Levi's home

@Shield> and NOW they concoct a scenario, which very well could have been based on fact by the way, that John's disciples and the Pharisees and their disciples were fasting

@Shield> so why not Jesus’ disciples

@Shield> I mean....

@Shield> were they not spiritual?

@Shield> were they not devout?

sarahw> o/

@Shield> did they not hold to Torah in all respects?

@Shield> these are hypothetical questions...

@Shield> but my point is

@Shield> the "people" very likely either were Pharisees, or teachers of the law who were sympathetic to the Pharisees, or they simply were some other group who honestly wanted to know

@Shield> We cannot completely know with precision based on this text

@Shield> but Jesus response is telling...

@Shield> but first, sarahw?

@Shield> please go ahead and post your question...

sarahw> in some respects by attacking john and those who followed john they were attacking Jesus because they were attacking the spiritual children grand children of Jesus .. of Jesus they didn't know what to do with john because he had a spirit of Elijah upon him and Jesus knew it and John’s followers had the spirit of Elisha on them..

sarahw> I know that is deep

sarahw> sorry

@Shield> well, I understand and appreciate what you are saying, but the text does not demonstrate that they attacked John or his disciples in this situation

sarahw> that is why they attacked him

jo> yeah,sarahw, amen

@Shield> actually, if anything, they were equating the devotion of John's disciples with that of the Pharisees, quite possibly as a way of cornering Jesus through theological hairsplitting

@Shield> but we do not want to read into it

jo> amen

@Shield> what we do know, is that they appealed to John

sarahw> it is both on both planes

@Shield> well I would disagree.

@Shield> but I do appreciate your comment

@Shield> so anyway, here we see the ploy

@Shield> and here is Jesus’ response

@Shield> remember...

@Shield> their question was about fasting

@Shield> Mark 2:19 Jesus said to them, "The wedding guests cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them, can they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

@Shield> Mark 2:20 The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast on that day.

@Shield> Mark 2:21 "No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old cloak; otherwise, the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made.

jo> yeah ok

@Shield> Mark 2:22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost, and so are the skins; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."

@Shield> take a moment and read verses 19 through 22 without pause.

@Shield> let it sink in

@Shield> Jesus stated his comments in this form for a purpose.

@Shield> and not as independent unrelated observations

@Shield> they were meant to flow together

@Shield> So let's remember the scene

@Shield> Jesus is with a bunch of his new friends, you know, the tax collectors, the sinners, the people whom the Pharisees thought unworthy of personal attention from Jesus

@Shield> or themselves, for that matter

@Shield> He told them that was the whole point of his coming, to be with the sinners, those who need a physician, rather than simply those who were healthy

@Shield> so all of a sudden, a group of "people", whoever they might be appear and say, "Hey! John's disciples and the Pharisees and their disciples are fasting..."

@Shield> why aren't your disciples fasting?

@Shield> huh?

@Shield> why not"

@Shield> huh?

@Shield> sort of a last ditch effort to entrap him

@Shield> but as was his custom, he masterfully replied with an eloquence that clearly eluded them

@Shield> but alluding to his Divinity

@Shield> by alluding to his forthcoming suffering and death

@Shield> by alluding to the fact He is the Bridegroom.

@Shield> for as we will see in the weeks ahead when we cover the passion of Christ, He will eventually be taken away, as he just now prophesied

@Shield> and at that time

@Shield> the disciples of Jesus will fast and pray.

@Shield> at that time, their hearts will be prepared for the fasting and prayer required of them

@Shield> the new wine skins will correspond with the new wine

@Shield> the new cloth with correspond with the new patch

@Shield> In the days to come, Jesus disciples, not least Mark, would recall this moment

@Shield> and it would become clear to them the depth of what he was teaching

@Shield> prophesying

@Shield> promising

@Shield> It is quite possible that some of you might very well be at the end of your rope, for whatever reason.

@Shield> It is possible that the way ahead seems unclear.

@Shield> It is possible that, like those who either questioned Jesus, or listened to him in that day, some here might not be sure what to make of it all.

@Shield> I don't know your heart.

@Shield> I don't know what you struggle with.

@Shield> I don't know the questions you have or the motives which you bear down deep.

@Shield> I can assure you that the Bridegroom quite clearly does.

@Shield> This same Bridegroom, the Christ, Jesus himself, who discerned the thoughts of the very Pharisees who were attempting to entrap him now and earlier in the text...

@Shield> this same Bridegroom knows my heart better than I know my own.

Bethel> amen

@Shield> And he knows your heart better than you know your own.

@Shield> You can fool me.

@Shield> You cannot fool God.

Angel4God> amen

@Shield> and yes, Jesus is God.

@Shield> So I would suggest we ask ourselves, how might God be working in our hearts to prepare us for that day when he will return for us.

@Shield> It is sooner that we think.

@Shield> Let's pray.

Tigger> Father, we come tonight before you

Tigger> thanking you for the work you have done through Shield.

Tigger> We thank you that you have given us another day to examine ourselves,

Angel4God> yes thank you Lord

Tigger> our hearts, Lord, that you can show us where and what we need to change.

Tigger> Father, help us each day to be more like you so that others will see you in us.

Tigger> I ask that you bless each one here accordingly and Lord, knowing that you alone

Tigger> know the heart of the individual,

Tigger> I ask that you answer each heart's prayer as it be your will.

Tigger> Forgive me of my sins, In Jesus' name, Amen.

carol> amen

Bethel> amen

Snapstur> Amen

@Shield> amen and thanks everyone for coming

Angel4God> amen